Methylene Blue, Hydrogen Water & Grounding: Science or Hype? with Dr. Nathan Bryan

Transcript

00:00
Many of these people don't have a science or medicine background. I like the biohack movement because it's allowing people to take control of their own health. Yeah. But the problem now

00:07
with biohacking, you can write a check, get on stage, speak before hundreds or thousands of people and all of a sudden you're an expert.

00:13
What are your favourite biohacking tools that seem to work?

00:17
What I like is bio stacking. So you go out, you watch the sun come up, you sit naked in the grass, and you practice deep breathing, nasal breathing. Do that

00:25
for 20 minutes. You've just checked like five or six boxes.

00:29
I'm Veronica Larisova and today I'm joined by Dr. Nathan Brian. In this episode we have a raw and open debate

00:38
about the current [music] state of the biohacking industry. We challenge the science behind methylene blue hydrogen

00:45
water exogenous ketones and grounding mats and drop some shocking truth bombs.

00:53
You are listening to the Chief Life podcast.

00:58
Dr. Nathan Brian, welcome to the Chief Life podcast. Thanks. Great to be with you again.

01:02
Second time and the reason is that we keep bumping into each other at biohacking events and we had few chats about you know biohacking tools,

01:11
biohacking supplements and whether they work or not. What do you think is one of those tools or supplements or methods

01:21
that is mainly hype with no not much science backup?

01:25
Well, in my in my kind of microcosm of nitric oxide research, it's beets and beet products and beet powders and beet shoes. I mean, there's all high there's zero science behind any of that.

01:36
There's zero science. Zero. Well, I shouldn't say that.

01:39
There's some science on on like when when there's a standardised amount of nitrate in a bead powder. And you can look at exercise performance. You can look at blood pressure lowering effects.

01:47
And there the science is very clear. But the problem is these companies who then take that or go, "Oh, I can just put beads and buy the cheapest bead powder.

01:54
There's no nutrients. There's no nitric oxide activity. And they settle in capsules. They put it in gummies.

01:59
There's no science on that. The only science out there is when I test the products and see if it contains any detectable amounts of nitrate and

02:06
nitride or produces nitric oxide when consumed, whether it stimulates indogenous nitric oxide production or the whether it produces nitric oxide

02:15
when it's put in water. And none of those products work. So that's the one. You tested them all.

02:19
No, I test all those products in. So when they do their science like they everyone who at least in Australia

02:26
everyone who claims any health uh benefit on their product needs to back it by science. So they use the science

02:33
on nitric oxide that they can find but their actual products don't work.

02:38
Well that's right. So what they do is they'll take clinical studies on an actual ingredient.

02:42
Okay. it's been published by an ingredient supplier.

02:45
When I put that ingredient in a product and then claim that product has the same effect as the ingredient alone. Yeah.

02:51
But the the science isn't on the finished product. It's on the ingredient in the product. And the majority of the time, the amount of the product they're putting in there, the ingredient there

02:59
is not what was in the actual clinical trial. Wow. So, it's it's it's it's a deception.

03:05
And that's what these companies do. And then they take the beet powder because there's clinical studies published on beet juice or beet powder. Yeah.

03:12
Then these ingredient companies just sell them the beet powder. And because most of these water soluble nutrients, they come out in the drying process.

03:20
So all you're left with is what we call a dead beat. There's no there's no there's no nutrient benefit to it. It's just high in oxalates. It turns your pee

03:28
and your poop red and causes a lot of anxiety. But there's zero nitric oxide benefit to it.

03:32
Wow. That's joking. And so many of my endurance athlete friends spend so much money on these products.

03:37
Yeah. And that's the problem, you know, because I come from the world of academia where you have to go through the rigor of randomised placebo control clinical trials. In order to publish a

03:45
study, it has to be revered by experts, people who know just as much if not more than you in that respective field. I

03:53
like the biohack movement because it's allowing people to take control of their own health.

03:56
Yeah. But the the opposite side of that is many of these people don't have a science or medicine background.

04:03
And I love the stories, the personal stories of of biohackers who were sick and sick and tired of being sick and the medical system failed them. And so they

04:10
they became empowered and they changed their trajectory, their health journey and now they're some of the healthiest people out there.

04:17
So they can take that story and make it as example that people can follow that, you know, what works for you may not work for me, what works for them may not. But

04:24
I get so annoyed by it. I keep hearing and some of these people are actually doctors. This is like the last big hype

04:31
saying that women shouldn't run. They shouldn't do ice bucks. They shouldn't fast. We discussed it and I'm like, how can you compare 18year-old athlete to

04:40
50-year-old obese woman to someone who is breastfeeding like it's impossible. That's right.

04:45
So, there's a lot a lot a lot of and I agree. I love the biohacking movement because it keeps bringing awareness to people's health, take taking care of

04:52
your health and there's a lot of good stuff but also a lot of hype which that's why I invited you here to discuss some particular products that I'm

05:00
interested in whether they actually work or not. But what are your favourite biohacking tools that actually are backed by science and that seem to work?

05:11
Well, personally what I do on a daily basis, I do an 18 hour fast and to me that's a very simple biohack. It completely changes your metabolism. Um,

05:19
it sensitises your body to insulin, especially helpful if you're insulin resistant or diabetic. U, and then I work out every day and I watch the sun

05:27
come up and those are three those are my three non-negotiables. And it doesn't cost me anything to do that. A little bit of time, but it's the best thing you

05:36
can do. But, you know, obviously I take my nitric oxide products because I know the science. They're clinically proven.

05:42
Um, and then what else do Yeah, I just I wake up with a servant's heart and with gratitude every day and I try to live

05:49
each day with with purpose and try to figure out how can I make someone else's life better. That's great.

05:54
I think those are that that's the balance between your your your physical, your emotional, and your spiritual health. Yeah.

06:00
And to me, it's all about balance. And for most of my life, I didn't have that balance.

06:04
Yeah. And I love that. And I guess that people forget that unless you uh address the basic things, there's no biohacking

06:12
tool that will save you. Some of them are science-based like red light beds, hyperbaric chambers. There a lot of signs for certain purposes. But still,

06:20
if you smoke, drink, don't sleep, stress a lot. Probably hyperbaric chamber is not going to save you from That's right. You have to distill it down to the basics. Yeah.

06:28
And I think those are the three most important things. Wake up with a servant's heart with gratitude. Uh do intermittent fasting, caloric restriction. Americans are overfed. We

06:36
graze throughout the day and then we got to move. Yeah.

06:38
Got to exercise and we got to get sunlight. So those those are cost savings. That's why that's why the bow hacking movement is so powerful because these are things your physician will never tell you.

06:47
Yeah.

06:47
He's going to prescribe you a medication and say if that didn't medication don't work. Come back and I'll put you on another medication. Then people wake up, they're 40 or 50 years old and they're taking dozen or more pills a day. Yeah.

06:57
And they wonder why they're sick and tired.

06:59
Yeah. added to so it's you know I think that's and the other thing I like is that I always tell people ask your physician ask your healthcare

07:08
practitioner are they taking any prescription medications and they look at them do they look healthy would you take health advice from someone who does is not healthy

07:17
no one would you shouldn't but yet doctors do a lot of doctors some of the most unhealthy people I know especially American doctors I know and Australian I know some

07:25
doctors that smoke at the back of the practice you want you want to take their advice on how to be healthy.

07:30
Yeah, forget about it.

07:32
I know. So, the purpose of the biohacking movement is to teach people to take care of their own health and take it in their hands and learn new

07:39
things and investigate. I love that for sure.

07:42
But I'm still interested in four different biohacking tools and supplements.

07:47
Um, and I just want to discuss what do you think about them, whether they work, what is your professional opinion if you know the research. And the one that I'm

07:56
most interested in is methylene blue because in Australia a lot of longevity and dieting doctors recommend methyline

08:04
blue for mitochondrial health and ATP production. Metalene blue is FDA approved but not for ATP production and

08:12
mitochondrial health. It's approved for curing certain illnesses which are very rare and also for uh helping with sepsis

08:20
but not for mitochondrial health and uh ATP production. that's out there in the biohacking world, but whether that works or not for this, I would love to know.

08:30
No, the short answer is no. There's no science on it. So, as you mentioned, it's synthetic dye that's a man-made dye that's used. It's FDA approved for

08:39
treatments of things like met hemoglobinia or cyanide poisoning and even the vagoplegic effect of an unsafe drop in blood pressure due to sepsis.

08:48
And the reason it's used is because it inhibits nitric oxide production. It causes vasoc constriction and it pre it

08:56
it oxidises the iron of hemoglobin and when you oxidise the iron of hemoglobin cyanide can't bind. So it's protecting the effects of cyanide but it's

09:05
oxidative therapy. It's an oxidant. An oxidant means it is stealing electrons and causing oxidative stress and rust.

09:12
And we've known for 40 years in the nitric oxide field bit methylene blue is a potent inhibitor of nitric oxide

09:19
production and nitric oxide signaling because it oxidises the iron the hemion of nitric oxide synthes and it oxidises

09:27
the iron the hemion of soluble gonate cycase the target of nitric oxide signaling. So when you do that it

09:34
completely inhibits nitric oxide production and signaling. So obviously this is a dose dependent effect.

09:39
Yeah. And so I think the therapeutic doses that are used to treat met hemoglobinia or malaria or some you know

09:46
treatment resistant um brain infections are much different than I think what's happening in the so-called biohacking field.

09:53
But yet again you've got these biohackers out there and chiropractors and you know who are experts in muscular skeletal but they don't understand the

10:00
biochemistry. If you don't understand the electrical potential required to reduce an oxidised metal that you're

10:07
causing oxidative stress, then you really have no business making recommendations. Oh, you should eat methylene blue, put it in your eyes, do it IV,

10:16
you know, take it daily. It's a synthetic diet. And the biohacker field is how do we naturally give the body what it needs, remove from the body what it doesn't need,

10:24
and use things that are natural. And so these biohackers out there go, "Oh, you should eat don't eat processed foods, don't do this, avoid prescription medication, but it's okay to take a

10:32
synthetic diet." I know that what was really interesting that, you know, it is synthetic dye. And I was always wondering how that can be

10:40
healthy for you. So, how did they come up with the whole theory about it being good for mitochondrial health and ATP production?

10:48
I can't remember the guy's name, but I looked him up and he's a journalist. Okay.

10:53
And he's probably a nice guy. I think he lost his long term. He was looking for ways to to try to but I don't know if he has anything more than a high school education.

11:02
So to to to you have to demonise nitric oxide. Okay?

11:07
Because everybody knows that methylates nitric oxide production.

11:10
So and again this is a journalist that's self-published.

11:14
So a publisher will go and fact check and make sure that what you're saying is actually true. But when you self-publish no one's going to fact check it. You

11:23
just put it in a in a a manuscript and and bind it and call it a book and now you're a published journalist that's now

11:30
making scientific claims and methylene blue.

11:33
I think that's how it started and then you know it kind of caught fire and then everybody was using methylene blue and that's the dangers with these fads is

11:42
that people people catch on and then start doing it then years later you realise oh wow that probably wasn't a good idea. I always felt so weird about

11:49
it like how can it be healthy when it's synthetic dye and it makes sense. I've read something in one of the studies on PubMed. Um they said that methylene blue

11:59
literature argues that excessive nitric oxide can contribute to oxidative damage through peroxy nitrite formation and

12:08
that methylene blue may improve mitochondrial function and ATP production that way.

12:12
Yeah. Now there look there's there's tons of there's over 200,000 papers published the nitric oxide field.

12:18
And the majority of them there's a misinterpretation of the data. So certainly in inflammatory conditions there's an upregulation of what's called

12:26
inducible nitric oxide synthes. So 4 hours after you see an infection or some type of inflammatory insult. The macrofasages will upregulate this

12:34
enzyme. So it's induced. It's not constituent expressed. But the purpose of that is it goes to the site of infection and that overprouction of

12:41
hydroxide binds to iron sulfur centers and bacteria and shuts down the respiration. So it's part of our innate immune system. Or if it's a viral infection, it prevents the virus from

12:49
replicating. Or if you have a cut on injury, it goes and mobilises the immune response, cleans up the infection, mobilises stem cells, you can repair and

12:57
replace that tissue. So during that, if you measure that, and we published this in probably 2004 in inflammatory bowel disease, ulcerative colitis, you've got

13:05
gross over production of nitric oxide in the colon in the the epithelial cells of the distal colon. But yet when you look

13:13
indogously there's a feedback inhibition. So it's shutting down constitutive nitric oxide production. So people say well there's nitric oxide

13:21
that's overproduced in inflammatory bowel disease or in certain conditions.

13:26
Say they say nitric oxide contributes to that pathology. But that's like blaming the fire trucks on the blaming the fire on the fire trucks.

13:34
The fire trucks always show up to the fire. Nitric oxide is always there. Yeah.

13:37
But they don't cause the fire. that'll help regulate the inflammatory response and to mitigate the damage. So again, that's just the misinterpretation of the

13:45
data. Yeah. And then people who implicate proxy nitride just don't know basic chemistry. Yeah.

13:50
Because NO is a radical, super oxides a radical. They come together, they form NO3 minus, rearranges to inorganic nitrate. Okay.

13:57
It's it's it's a nonissue. It's all just big myth.

14:00
It's a big myth. It's people who don't understand basic chemistry.

14:03
Yeah. And that's what's dangerous about this when you've got a journalist and or people that you know and look I'm I'm a big fan of chiropractors they're I go to

14:11
a chiropractor but they're not biochemist majority of them and they don't understand basic chemistry. So to make recommendations of which something

14:18
you don't know anything about is not only disingenuous but it's dangerous.

14:22
It is. Yeah. And I think a lot of people have surface level of knowledge and they pretend they're experts and they have charisma and people trust them and that's how it happens, right?

14:33
That's the problem now with biohacking.

14:35
You can write a check, get on stage, speak before hundreds of thousands of people and auto all of a sudden you're an expert.

14:41
100% you're an influencer. Yeah, I know.

14:43
And that's that's the dangerous all the time is when people see in the audience see somebody on stage that they may have written a big check to become a speaker.

14:51
Yeah. They're regarded, you know, they have regardless of whether they have credentials or pedigree or any experience whatsoever to talk about that

15:00
subject matter, they're perceived as a expert.

15:03
100%. And I think general public or I didn't even know that until I had the business and I realised that every time

15:10
I apply for a booth, there's also option to pay to speak. That's right.

15:13
I didn't know that before. And most paid by all pay to play and then if you pay for long enough, you become an expert. Right.

15:20
Yeah, for sure. And look, I think it's important for people to stay in their lanes and and stick with what you know

15:26
and become an expert in that and you know, but I think it's very important for people to understand who they're

15:34
getting the information from and what allowed them to have some type of credibility or expertise on that. Had they ever published a scientific paper, you know, what credentials do they have?

15:45
And so you have to do your own research and make sure that the information you're getting is valid because there's

15:53
nothing more important than a help. And if you're taking advice from somebody who doesn't know about maybe you have a pre-existing condition, maybe you have some single nucleide

16:00
polymorphism in some gene that you can't detoxify or you're a slow methylate or something, then that recommendation they make to you may have detrimental consequences.

16:10
Yeah, for sure. So that's that's the benefit of having a trained medical professional kind of do a full assessment and understand what's right

16:17
for you, what's right for me because a lot of times it's there's there's no one sizefits-all. No matter where there's not and people do your background check,

16:24
don't get nutrition advice from soccer coach and soccer advice from piano teacher.

16:31
Yeah, check what's in the background. All right, next one. Hydrogen water. I really want hydrogen water to be a real thing, but I'm very skeptical about it.

16:41
There's so many devices and I got some really cool hydrogen bottle that when I put the water in and press the button, it looks like a discard. It just seems

16:49
like such a gimmick. What do you think about the hydrogen water and its ability to fight oxidative stress and inflammation, which is what they claim?

16:58
And that can be the bottles, the different devices, or the hydrogen powders that make the water hydrogenated. You know, I think there's

17:06
a lot of good science published in the scientific literature on molecular hydrogen. Now, mechanistically, I think it's trying to figure out what's the

17:14
mechanism of action because it goes in as H2, comes out as H2. When it's number one on a periodic table, it's one of the most stable compounds. Obviously, it's

17:21
influencing some gene expression, turning some genes on, turning some genes off. A lot of these are probably antioxidant related uh genes. But the

17:29
other problem is obviously it's dose dependent. Too much hydrogen is flammable. We call it the hydrogen bomb.

17:36
It's an atomic bomb. And so we have to understand if you don't know what you're doing and can't dictate and control the dose of that. There's been reported

17:44
people reports of people that are taking uh hydrogen through a nasal can at really high doses and then they may

17:51
touch some or someone there's a static electricity and there's it goes off. Wow.

17:56
They they catch on fire because hydrogen is very flammable and so it's just that static electricity. Maybe it's opening your phone or taking a phone call.

18:03
They're static electricity and it causes see sometimes you get static like everyone gets it sometimes. I wonder where it from. Yeah.

18:09
But so you have to be able to deliver a safe amount of of molecular hydrogen in a way that the other thing is too look

18:17
it's a very small gas and so if you're putting in a plastic bottle it's just going to diffuse out. Okay.

18:22
So you have to have some closed container to maintain that. But look I take a molecular hydrogen tub every morning. It's just elemental magnesium which magnesium itself is beneficial but

18:31
when it dissolves on water it's releasing hydrogen gas. Okay.

18:34
So I take it because I understand the science.

18:38
I don't necessarily know that I see a benefit from it. Yeah.

18:42
But again it's one of those things that I've read the scientific literature. I understand what hydrogen is, what it does. And so for me, it's one of those

18:49
things that I know it's safe and I take it when I take it alongside my nitric

18:55
oxide products and before a workout, I see and I can perceive a noticeable difference. Okay.

19:03
In the workout. So there's less perceived exertion. Okay.

19:07
So when I take them together, I feel like I can push more weight. I can I can do lower without tiring. Interesting. So that's kind of a subjective measure.

19:16
Um and then I think you know we had some anecdotal evidence where we combined the two in at least half a dozen patients and everybody reported better effects

19:24
than just with the hydrogen alone or just with the nitric oxide alone.

19:27
So but according to all the literature that you've read what are the proven benefits of the hydrogen water?

19:35
Well certainly it has any oxygen effects. Okay. Um and again but I don't know how it's doing that because in the nitric oxide for me oxidation and

19:43
reduction is transfer of electrons but when hydrogen comes in goes out of the same molecular structure there's no transfer of electrons

19:51
and so I don't know how it's doing that other than inducing antioxidant genes and upregulating antioxidant defense systems um but I think it's clear

20:00
there's cool benefit on exercise performance on um you know anti-ageing effects like even data on lengthening telomeirs or

20:09
preventing telomeir shortening and then on um some data on mitochondrial function.

20:15
Okay, great. So keep using my disco hydrogen bur.

20:18
Forget it. I just understand again that it needs to be some validation of how much hydrogen is actually dissolved.

20:26
Yeah.

20:27
In that and you don't want too low you're going to get the effect but too high you know you could you put yourself at risk. So I should really ask the company if they

20:35
can provide any proof or test or something like that. for sure how much how much molecular hydrogen is generated especially if you're using a nasal

20:43
canula what's the flow rate how much is actually being delivered at any given time and then you know depends upon the flow rate that the the rate of

20:52
respiration and inspiration there's so many factors that contribute to this that if you don't understand basic science

21:00
and physics and physical chemistry you know a lot of these companies out there really have no business doing what they're trying to do but it's hard for the consumer

21:09
like it's not hard. It's almost impossible.

21:11
Yeah, I have some science background but I don't know a lot of these things and someone who doesn't have any science background forget it. So people go and spend a whole bunch of money on products

21:20
they don't work. So do you think the way is to always ask before you buy any product ask for their testing or research or anything like that?

21:28
I think one of the best things someone can do and this this this is for any product or any company they're they're buying from. If a company is making,

21:38
let's call it a magnesium product or a vitamin C, ask the company, who's the scientist that developed this? Does that

21:46
person whether they're running a company, the science behind the products? What is their background? Are they actual scientists?

21:54
And then, you know, for me, it's easy in the nitric oxide field because there's always a company out there that does that. You got companies run by tech

22:02
executives and former insurance salesmen that are will sell nitric oxide products and it's it's humorous but you know it should be with any it's like if you're buying a

22:10
molecular hydrogen product then who's developing that product do they know how much hydrogen is releasing how much is being delivered is

22:19
it safe is it rep is it reproducible that every time you take that product you're getting the same amount of hydrogen so you have to do a little bit

22:27
of homework and and due diligence on these And if there's no scientist related from the company, then it's probably not a valid product.

22:35
Okay. So, yeah, that's the clue. Have some scientist involved and make sure they didn't just pay some scientists to say that.

22:42
Well, for sure. And the other problem is these companies pay these doctors or scientists to come in and be, you know, endorsed the endorse the product. They

22:49
have no idea. They never published anything. Yeah.

22:51
In the nitric oxide field. And then you've got, you know, companies being led by people who are in software and hardware and tech,

22:59
leading nitric oxide companies when they have no idea about the science.

23:02
I know it's one podcast talking about nitric oxide and 60,000 miles of blood vessels and it's like some auto repeat.

23:10
Oh god, it's really difficult in this day and age for the consumers though. It really is because there's so much stuff around and you don't know what to

23:17
believe and what not to believe. So yeah, thanks for clarifying. That's the that's the value of these conversations that we that we can properly inform and

23:25
educate consumers so they're not deceived or you know defrauded. Yeah.

23:30
By buying these products that don't work.

23:31
That's why I started this whole podcast because I wanted to give people credible information from credible people in a simplified form because there also a lot

23:40
of great podcasts out there. They go for 3 hours and they're all in science lingo and people don't know what's going on.

23:47
So I just wanted to provide really good quality information by inviting people such as yourself who's good 20 years in research and you definitely know what you're talking about on your topic.

23:56
Yeah. Yeah. I think it's important.

23:58
It is. Well, the next one I'm really interesting. This is really interesting because Exoggenous Ketones had their

24:05
moment in Australia about 10 years ago and I remember it because when we started Chief, we shared a store with Exogenous Ketones company and it was a

24:14
big hype in the CrossFit world and my question is do actually exogenous

24:21
ketones have any benefit? because people use them for weight loss which I don't know how they would make you burn more

24:29
fat from your body if you're giving the fat exogenously via the supplement and also they claim they improve your brain

24:37
health by providing more ketones to the brain but if you are in ketosis naturally it's the same thing so do

24:45
exogenous ketones have any merit or not no I think they do and some people but here's the problem you have to understand the physiology and the

24:53
cellular the the energy currency of the cell because every cell in the body different tissue requires different

25:00
energy currency right like the heart likes fatty acids for example likes to oxidise fatty acids energy store the brain likes glucose and then ketones and

25:08
so there's there's a hierarchy so when you run out of sugar or glucose then your body moves on to the next energy currency which many times is current is

25:17
ketones or put you in ketosis and so the benefits of ketosis I think is because you've run out of sugar and you're

25:25
limiting the body and sugar is the poison, the toxin that feeds cancer that changes, you know, that develops insulin resistance in the cell. So I think

25:34
ketosis is a consequence of glucose deprivation.

25:40
And so people look at this, I think it's an epiphenomenon, but certainly the the science behind getting the body into ketosis, whether it's in cancer patients

25:49
or in people with insulin resistance, the science and the clinical data are very clear. Ketosis is a good thing. Yes.

25:56
So giving an exogenous ketone, does it decrease blood sugar? Probably not because you still have the glucose around. You've got the ketones around.

26:05
Yeah.

26:06
So I don't think there's there's a benefit to that. you. My philosophy is understand the energetics energetics of

26:13
the cell and start doing things to the body that allow the body to adapt and respond.

26:18
Let the body go into ketosis because if you get your blood sugar below 80, your ketones are going to go up. That's just how the body works.

26:26
Yeah, that makes complete sense and I agree. But what people are saying like obviously if you are not in ketosis and you're eating sugar and then you get

26:34
exogenous ketones isn't going to do anything gain. It's just extra calories.

26:38
But what about if you are that's what people say when you are in ketosis and you take those ketones it puts you in a deeper ketosis and you have more benefit. Is that true?

26:47
I look I think dose dictates the poison.

26:49
You can go into ketogenic shock which happens in some diabetics and and you find somebody passed out and you can smell the acetone and the ketones

26:57
coming off their breath. You know they're in ketogenic shock.

27:00
Yeah. So I think you have to be careful with that because the body always responds to what's what's given and just like you know you can consume too much water and cause hypotonic lis and die

27:09
from too much water you consume too much nitric oxide get an unsafe drop in blood pressure and hyperrofusion take too much ketones and give it a ketogenic shock.

27:16
So that's why and look all these companies out there selling the product are only going to tell you the good side of course they have an agenda.

27:24
Yeah.

27:25
And so they can they don't even tell you the bad side or the downside. Their objective is to sell you as much of that product for as long as they can.

27:32
Yeah, that is true. And I just wanted to point out that you will not burn more body fat if you take more exogenous ketones. Might you might end up putting

27:40
on Yeah, it is true. It can happen. All right, so we clear on ketogenous exogenous ketones. Last one, grounding and

27:50
earthing mats. So I'm pretty sure there's a lot of science behind the actual grounding and earthing is good for inflammation and I think it's a part

27:58
of the whole forest bathing as well and being in touch with nature. Um the the effects on physiology and health are

28:05
undeniable and they all relate to inflammation, immune response, wound healing and the prevention and treatment of chronic inflammatory and autoimmune

28:14
disease. So that is walking or lying on the sand on the grass or natural surfaces. My question is, what about all

28:22
those grounding mats or even like you can get like a grounding anklet that you plug into the wall and all those biohacking devices? Do they work or not?

28:33
I think you it's almost impossible to duplicate nature by a synthetic device.

28:40
So grounding, walking around barefoot on the earth is a big magnet. It's an unlimited source of electrons. And so oxidative stress occurs when we we lose more electrons than we have access to.

28:50
We're able to recycle that and that's oxidative stress. So if we walk barefoot, we're getting an unlimited

28:57
supply of electrons. So now we've we're we're overcoming oxidative stress and providing the electrical potential of the cell. So the cell operates at minus

29:06
25 molts. If you plug that in the ner equation, the speed 7.4. And so when we lose that electrical potential, when we

29:13
lose electrons, then we start to lose that voltage and then our pH starts to drop and we develop what's called the warbert effect and we create this

29:22
aerobic fermentation and that's where caner cells start to proliferate and replicate. But if we can provide an an unlimited number of electrons and

29:30
recycle this and overcome oxidative stress, then we can prevent chronic disease. So, it's a long way of saying

29:37
you've got to balance the risk of electromagnetic frequency by plugging in a device versus what frequency is it providing.

29:45
Okay.

29:46
So, there's no substitute and and it's free to walk barefoot on the grass on the beach. It's free. I don't need to plug in a mat to get that same effect.

29:55
Yeah.

29:56
And so, I make it a point every morning, walk outside, watch the sun come up, and I live on a big piece of property in in

30:03
Texas with no neighbor. Some of us are sitting out there naked.

30:06
So, but I had this question. I thought it was really funny, but I have to ask you anyway. Someone asked me, "What about if they walk barefoot on concrete?

30:13
Does it do anything?" No, I mean, you've got to touch the actual earth way. It's grass or sand doesn't because that's that's an

30:21
insulation. There's no conductance uh through that.

30:24
But no, I think there's some and again, you have to go back to the manufacturer say, "Okay, what frequency is this giving?" Yeah. And what are the and if if

30:33
companies are real companies, they're going to actually put that product or that device through some clinical trial.

30:39
Is it does it affect heart rate variability?

30:41
Is it affecting you know isoprostage or some measures of oxidative stress?

30:46
Um but if they can provide real bonafide data on clinically relevant endpoints, I think there may be something to it.

30:53
Yeah. Could just calling a a mat a grounding mat without any data or what frequency or what voltage it's it's putting off.

31:00
Yeah, there's so many. I think they probably are good and bad ones. And once again, you need to read the science, ask them for the science, see what's behind the brand.

31:10
But what I like is bio stacking. Yeah. Right. And you can use nature.

31:15
Yeah. So you go out, you watch the sun come up, you sit naked in the grass, and you practice deep breathing, nasal breathing with prayer, meditation. Do

31:24
that for 20 minutes. You've just you just checked like five or six boxes.

31:28
Yeah, I do that all the time, and I'm practically naked because the clothes that I wear totally to run and you need to expose the sunlight.

31:36
Yeah, I know. And that's another thing like this is not about biohacking, but it really blows my mind and it especially it's a problem in Australia.

31:43
How many people really cover themselves from the sun? They are constantly covered in sunscreen, in sunglasses,

31:50
with hats and they see sun as an evil, but we actually need sun to be healthy even for the nitric oxide.

31:57
Absolutely. Yeah. Nitric oxide. I mean the sun is going to activate vitamin D.

32:01
Vitamin D stimulates nitric oxide production. But sunlight will release nitric oxide bound to metals. When you produce nitric oxide, it binds to

32:08
metals, binds to cysteine thaws. But both ends of this visible spectrum ultraviolet and the the far infrared

32:15
will release nitric oxide. The UV is a frequency and energy that can cleave a covealent bond of NO bound to cysteine and then the infrared gives a frequency

32:23
that can release nitric oxide bound to metals. So we're getting this constant source of nitric oxide activation and

32:29
production is re-released from direct sunlight 20 30 minutes of sunlight a day.

32:34
Yeah, I know. And if you go out and look at the sun and don't wear sunglasses, it's your body getting the senses that you're out in the sun. So, it's going to

32:42
elicit these protective mechanisms. But I've never used sunscreen. I'm out in the sun 3 or four hours a day every day.

32:47
My kids have never used sunscreen. I think the people who develop melanoma and skin canthroughs and squenils and

32:54
things like that are the people who use chemicals sunscreens. No, that's what I think. That are toxic and carcinogenic.

33:03
I never use sunscreen. And you know what? Like if you think about it with just the common sense, we have now the highest rates of cancer in the history of humankind, right?

33:14
Before we had sunscreen, the cancer rates weren't as high. How did the humankind survive for thousands of years

33:21
without thousands and now all of a sudden we all need sunscreen, but so many people have cancer. Who came up with a sunscreen? What is do you know

33:30
anything about it? Like what's behind it? how it actually emerged.

33:35
I don't know the full history of it. But that if you look at what I did is take epidemological data, what's indisputable literature. And so it's known that

33:43
people who live at a higher um um like in the northern hemisphere or in the southern hemisphere where there's less sunlight compared to the people who live

33:51
around the equator where there's longer sunlight exposure compared and they have less incidence of high blood pressure,

33:58
heart disease, cardiovascular disease really all cause mortality. And this was a Norwegian study published several years ago by Richard Willer who's a

34:05
dermatologist by the way and looked at that and says look we we've gone about this all the wrong way. We need sunlight because it's eliciting these these

34:14
protective mechanisms. And so the worst thing you can do is put chemicalbased a lot of these are are chromophores these

34:21
chemicals that when they're activated by the sunlight they turn in these carcinogenic mutagenic compounds and that's what's in sunscreen.

34:28
It's terrible. And so you know for thousands of millions of years people have walked around hundreds of thousands of years.

34:34
I mean people didn't live long. Maybe they didn't live long enough to get cancer. I mean who knows? But I think people didn't live long enough because they didn't have antibiotics and other things to infectious disease.

34:44
Yeah. I don't think but I think the science is very clear.

34:47
Sunlight is extremely important. It should not be feared. And the worst thing you can do is put on sunscreen 100%. And not getting in the sun. Even

34:55
for a circadian rhythm getting out in at sunset and sunrise, it's healthy.

35:00
Yeah, that's right. I watch the sun come up usually every morning no matter where I am in the world.

35:03
I love it every single day. That's so good. I'm glad to hear that. Okay. So, let's go back to the four that we just named, the uh methylene blue, the

35:12
grounding mats, the um exogenous ketones, and the hydrogen water. And let's rate them uh from 1 to 10. One

35:21
being the worst, 10 being the best. And this is based on the mechanics, mechanistic plausibility, human evidence, clinical usefulness, and

35:29
marketing honesty. Okay. So, rating one to 10. Methyline blue minus 10. [laughter] that you had to give it a one.

35:36
Yeah. Okay. Hydrogen water. Hydrogen water. I'm give it an eight. Yeah.

35:41
Yeah. I think the science is clear. But again, to touch all those you put on on marketing confidence and and truth and advertising. Yeah.

35:49
You a lot of companies out there probably aren't telling the truth about what the how much hydrogen their product is actually delivering. Yeah.

35:54
Do they have any data to to cooperate that or to verify it or validate it?

35:58
Okay. Exogenous ketones, you know, probably a three or four. uh because I don't again without knowing

36:06
and having clinical data in people who have an elevation in blood sugar and then giving them massage ketones certainly if you measure their ketones

36:14
in their blood and their saliva it's going to be elevated but has it changed the energetics of the cell has it depleted the cell and it's now using ketones instead of

36:22
you know glycolysis or utilising glucose I haven't seen any data so what was the number you give it three or four three and then what about the granding

36:31
rats gram grounding itself 10 the grounding mats I mean again it's hard to put a blanket statement on all these I think

36:39
there's some some grounding mats who have um you know stones termine and and minerals in it that are that release

36:47
some frequency that can provide some benefit that you don't even have to plug in so probably a five you know give it kind of a middle of the road

36:54
yeah amazing thank you which biohacking trend do you think is the most likely to disappear in the next five years all the metal blue

37:02
metal glue Okay, that's good. And which one has a legitimate promise but is currently being undersold?

37:11
Biohacking the most promise but being undersold.

37:20
You know, I think I'm a big fan of infrared saunas cuz when a sauna is a way and sweating is a way of detoxing

37:27
and the infrared frequency in the light similar is providing additional benefit. It's activating our mitochondria.

37:32
Mitochondrial chromophores. And so we're getting efficient energy production, but it's also enhancing circulation through the heat and it's helping us detoxify.

37:43
And so if we drink a lot of good, clean remmineralized water, we have good bowel movements, we practice deep breathing and we sweat, you know, we can eliminate

37:52
exposure to toxins because we live in a toxic world. But if we practice detoxification pathways and enhance those, then the toxic burden is much

37:59
less. And sauna is one of the best ways to do that. Yeah. I mean, if you're not sweating through exercising or running in Miami or Texas, then you pull up

38:07
north or you're not out sweating and breaking the sweat, then I think it's essential that you have to sit in a sun.

38:12
Yeah, for sure. I've been doing sona and ice baths since the age of six because Eastern Europe applies it onto children from very young age. What do you think about ice baths?

38:22
I think ice baths are one of those things that I do ice bath. I don't do it every day because I'm not sure doing that every day because it's a huge

38:30
stress on the body. Uh but usually two or three times a week after my sauna I go from 30 minutes at 170° and then I have it's

38:39
usually 37 to 40° in the ice bath and then I'll do sitting there for for 3 minutes. But I think the data on the

38:47
contrast therapy is pretty impressive because it's changing, you know, the brown the the wide inflammatory fat to brown fat that's

38:54
more thermogenic. And I've noticed, you know, even a difference in my own body composition, the belly fat and, you know, the love handles

39:02
went away because the fat becomes more thermogenic. Yeah.

39:04
Because you're shivering in your body's I need to generate heat. Yeah. So the fat cells have to come more thermogenic. They have more mitochondria.

39:10
And so I like it. Well, I shouldn't say I like it. Actually, I hate it, but I like the benefits of it because it's it's a very and what I've noticed too

39:19
when I'm intentional about it, it forces you to get into your breathing. And so now when I used to get into the ice bath, I would see an increase in heart

39:26
rate. Now when I prepare and get into my breathing, I see my heart rate decreases. So I'm more in a

39:33
parasympathetic and a sympathetic stress response because when you first do it, it's very stressful. And if you don't have medical clearance, you've gota, you

39:42
know, you don't have a good heart. It's you shouldn't be doing contrasted things. Yeah, that is true.

39:47
But no, I think it I think um you know, doing it periodically, I don't think it's good to do every day. Um but for me, I do it two or three times a week.

39:55
Yeah.

39:56
But if I feel like my body needs it and wants it, I'll do it. I feel like my body's telling me not to do it, then I just don't do it.

40:02
So listen to your body. It's a good advice. So one last question. What would you say to the biohacking world? What changes need to be made for the

40:11
biohacking methods and tools to be better for people?

40:17
There has to be some level of scientific and clinical rigor because you just can't put somebody on stage that's influencing millions of people that doesn't have the pedigree or the

40:25
credentials to say what they're saying and they go, "Well, I used AI and AI is only as good as the information that it's fed." As we've discussed here,

40:34
there's so much misinformation out there that AI can't be correct because the information it's fed isn't correct.

40:41
And so again, it's it there has to be some level of rigor. And you know, I come from the world of academia where we prove it through science and then

40:49
translate that science into random mass placebo control clinical trials in certain populations.

40:54
And there has to be some level of rigor in order for that because I don't want the biohacking movement to go away because I think it's too important

41:02
because it empowers people. And the goal of every patient or every consumer should be to never see a physician

41:10
because if you give the body what it needs or remove from the body what it doesn't need, the body heals itself. And if you're healthy and well, you don't need to see a physician.

41:18
That is true.

41:20
So empower yourselves, but also be diligent in making sure that the information, the person you're getting

41:27
the information from is qualified and knows what he's talking about and there's some evidence to support what he's saying.

41:33
But shouldn't this also be the responsibility of the event organizers to only source speakers that are credible, to only source products and do

41:42
the background check on the products they're being exhibited? Absolutely. But there's too much money.

41:48
You know, money is the root of all evil and these these events are put on for for profit and to generate money to fund new events and others. And so, you know,

41:57
people out there, companies out there willing to pay tens of thousands of dollars, hundreds of thousands of dollars to be a title sponsor,

42:04
give them the speaking with no credentials. I see it all the time. Yeah.

42:08
And yet they become an expert and an influencer. That's just because they write a big check.

42:13
Yeah. That gives me an event idea. I hold the biohacking event where everyone is qualified and all the products are sciencebacked and can prove it. How good

42:21
would that be? I probably wouldn't make any money.

42:25
Well, look, you have to figure out what's what's the motive.

42:28
Yeah. Right. And if your motive is to make money, then it wouldn't work. Yeah.

42:32
But I think if in companies want to participate and and and be present at

42:39
conferences where there's consumers that are willing to buy the products. And so just like anything, it's what's the return on investment. Yeah.

42:48
But I think no, I think it's it's it should be kind of it shouldn't leave our radar. It shouldn't leave it should be a

42:55
motivation, but you know, it takes a lot of time and effort to put on these events to secure the venue and then you it it's capital intensive because you've

43:04
got to prepay, book it, and then hope people come. You build it, they hope they come. And you know, a lot of I've been to a lot of events, medical

43:12
events, scientific events, and biohacking events, and some that were around seven, eight years ago when no longer around

43:20
and now there's some that weren't here seven or eight years ago that are growing. And so, for me, it's it's a balance. And there's a couple of events that I really

43:27
like that that are more science-based and don't just allow anybody. Can you name the secret? Oh, no. No.

43:34
Um, no. No, I think it's it's I don't want to call them out because I speak at a lot of these events and I don't want to alienate them because I think it's but the message the my message to

43:43
anybody who's putting on an event is to have well credentialed pedigreed speakers who understand the subject matter.

43:50
You know, I I get invited to many conferences that are outside the nitro oxide field to go and speak.

43:56
Yeah. and I'd decline it and they I get a lot of money for speaker fees, but I'm not qualified to go and speak at an

44:05
event which I have no expertise in or that I haven't published in. Yeah.

44:09
So, I I stay in my lane. I I do one thing and I do better than anybody else in the world. So, that's what I do.

44:15
Yeah. And I must say like I'm discussing all this is on a philosophical basis but most of the events I've been to in the US had a lot of credible speakers a lot

44:24
of speakers that I look up to and that actually like such as yourself who have a lot of research behind them. So it's not all bad. We're just discussing you

44:31
know it's not perfect but every single event I've been to I enjoyed. I love the biohacking community because it's a group of people. They're really hungry

44:40
to learn how to be healthy and they really care about their health and help the others and the environment. So, I do enjoy Dubai hacking community, but

44:47
everything can always get better, right?

44:50
No, for sure. And I think it has to be a mix. Nobody consumers don't want to go sit through a really hardcore scientific meeting because it's it's it's over

44:58
their head and they don't want to get it. But what they do want to hear and you know, I speak at probably 30 40 events a year is that people like stories and they like to see these

45:06
health transformations. And so I think and there's a lot of biohackers out there that do a really good job of taking their personal story and you they

45:15
were sick and tired and standard of care failed them and they tried to take control of their own health and they did these things and really document each way and and tell the story and write

45:24
books about this is their health transformation. This is what worked for them and they can they have the Nqual one experiment, right? the N equal one

45:32
is them and they can document the changes and what they did and the protocols and then people can model that and use it and it's inspirational. It's

45:41
motivational. So that I think is still very powerful. There's nothing more powerful than than a personal story.

45:47
But there has to be some science and somebody to come in maybe after that and go I can explain this scientifically. That's a great idea.

45:54
And then there's there's there's miracles you know miracles happen but things happen that can't be explained by simple science. So there's that too. So

46:02
I don't you know maybe there's a there's a balance between that. So maybe there's a personal story by a biohacker. Yeah.

46:09
And then maybe followed up with a physician or scientist and like and here's how we explain what happened.

46:14
That's such a good idea. I never thought of it like that. Great tip. I'll see you at the expire.

46:19
And then you also have people to call Oh damn. They go this guy doesn't know what he's talking about.

46:24
That's even better because in academic conferences where I came from and what I grew up in, there was constant conflict and people would challenge you. If you said something,

46:32
you better be damn sure you could back it up or people would embarrass you on the stage. And so you have to develop a thick skin. But you know, we become too

46:40
soft and don't want to hurt anybody's feelings and we don't cut people out.

46:43
But I think we have to get back to calling Yeah, I love that. I really, really love that. Thank you so much for today and I see you next week at the biohacking

46:52
event or this week. this week. I do this week. I'll see you then. Thank you, Val. Thanks.

46:57
Thanks so much for listening. If you enjoyed this episode, subscribe to the Achieve Life podcast for more [music] conversations on performance, nutrition,

47:04
and mindset. And we'll see you in the next episode.